I've always thought of you as a man. But maybe that's because I've never seen your breasts. :)

With my friends, I often make a distinction between being "a" man or woman vs. being "the" man or woman in a given relationship: one friend of mine is feminine in various ways, yet there's no question that she's "the man" in her marriage. Like Mad said in her post, gender identities are hats that we should be able to take on and off at will.

...

I'd offer to fix that w/ a photograph, but I'm afraid it could be taken in entirely the wrong way.

I honestly do wish we could just chuck the whole thing. Far aside from my irritation at having the pink hat squished on my head by people who can't wrap their minds around the alternative, or who are easily confused by purses, no matter how someone approaches the categorization question (Andrea is feminine despite her behaviour OR Andrea is masculine) makes me feel like a freak. I'd much prefer just to be described or thought of as I am, without needing to be in one box or the other, ever (Andrea is arrogant and hates to lose at Civ).

Interesting. I've been thinking similar thoughts since taking the same BBC test.

I also came out as a man. I'm great at spatial relations, my Man Finger is longer. I also love strategy games, and I stink at a lot of girly stuff like being the one in charge of remembering birthdays, making small talk, and handling social niceties. Apparently, given that I also showed a preference for more masculine faces in the face test, I am a gay man.

Someone had better tell my husband and parents ;)

The "masculine" and "feminine" examples you give about children go a long way to explaining why I didn't want to know what gender I was having before either child was born. I don't think, with my hormones amok, that I could have dealt with the "Oh, he kicks so much, he's gonna be a football player" or "She's squirmy, she'll be handful" being said about a fetus whose nervous system wasn't even myelinzed yet! A friend jokes, to this day, about wanting to say "Oh, she looks like she'll be good with power tools!" about newborn girls when he meets them for the first time.

Having a kid of each gender means that everyone tells me that every difference in their personalities is down to gender. They ignore the ways that my boy goes against Boy Type, or the ways that my girl differs that make her *more* of a "boy" - already, she has more math and analytical skills, but because she also likes princesses and playing families, she's "really showing you what girls are all about."

Yeah. Girls are also about being able to throw rocks further than brother can. But we don't talk about that.

Good post :)

Curse you, Andrea, for those fascinating links! I've got nothing done this morning - ouch. But I did discover that I'm only a little bit feminine - a bit of a surprise - on the BBC test. I couldn't find a page with interpretation of the BEM - is the first column masculine, the second feminine, and the third androgynous? If so, I am feminine - but barely.

Yep, first column masculine, second feminine, third androgynous.

I tried to find a page w/ both the inventory and the interpretation on it, but I couldn't.

Me again. Such a damn intriguing topic. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I try to use the rhetoric of "masculine" and "feminine" advisedly. I realize that the terms refer to gender as construct rather than inherent sex differences*. I do use them though precisely because we operate in a culture that defines EVERYTHING according to them. To step outside this codified language would be like stepping outside patriarchy or capitalism. i.e., it can't be done b/c we are born into it--as you so eloquently wrote in Another Mystery. We can try to unpack the terms and we can try to critique the systems but we cannot divest ourselves of their legacy and our role in perpetuating their legacy.

For me, I use these terms while trying to hedge my bets in dealing with the social structures that enforce a gendered determinism on sex difference. For example, my daughter's behaviour is currently presenting as something that is socially codified as "feminine". Because of this I want to analyse how I might mitigate the more destructive "feminine" codes she will be subjected to and how I might give her a critical awareness to operate in and around them.

I don't know if any of the makes sense.

Oh, I also want to say in response to your general caveat, that if my recent post and comments are part of what's swirling in your head, fear not. I don't easily take offence. In fact I am thrilled by the level of debate on this issue and thrilled that whenever I put something out there tentatively and couched in personal experience, you pick it up and help craft it into a worthy subject for debate and dialogue. Sometimes I am so eager to comment that I don't step back and worry about the niceties of bloggy small talk. If this ever seems like defensive zeal, then please forgive me. It's more likey just my being keenly tuned into the conversation.

*(although I do believe there are innate personality differences that while they may not be pegged simply to sex difference, they do exist on a continuum that takes biological difference into account)

Sara--forgot to say: 1. Yes. Exactly. and 2. I'm remembering your friend's phrase, and using it the very next chance I get.

MH, I realize that in the world as it currently is, it's pretty hard to escape those particular terms. I threw them around myself pretty liberally in the post. I wish we could get rid of them, but I know we're a long way from that, if that moment ever arrives.

I also think that the words themselves do get in the way of our expectations and experiences because, thanks to long training, we simply can't help but assume that a person who *looks* feminine will *be* feminine. And vice versa.

RE: the caveat. That was one of the posts/discussions, yes. The thing is, I don't easily take offence either. One of the things that people get when they deal with me that they often don't expect, is that I am not conflict-averse, and I can get into a pretty heated debate with someone without it influencing my affection for them in the slightest. It took me a long time to learn that I can't expect other people to share that, so sometimes the caveats are necessary.

You might have noticed that I'm about twice as likely to comment when I disagree, as when I agree. But I gather most folks are the opposite, at least.

"I even manifest depression in a masculine way. Weepy? Sad? Emotional? Not so much. Irritable? Lashes out? Loses sleep? Bingo!"

Crap. I guess from now on I'm MR.PeanutButtersMum. *wink*

I took the BBC test awhile ago and fully expected to come out masculine because I always identify more with men. I think of myself as genderless trending toward masculine... but guess what. The BBC says I'm a girl. Surprise!

I don't mind the feminine pigeonholing so much. The only thing that makes me crazy is when men -- usually older men -- think I'm cute for speaking with them as equals. They look at me with bemusement: well look at you thinking! how adorable!

Just took the BBC test -- the things that I should be doing are not as important as curiosity. I have masculine hands. Who knew. Well, to be truthful, I did.

The trouble with 'masculine' and 'feminine' is that they are cultural, and vary by a huge amount from society to society. 'Male' and 'Female' don't. Yeah, more men do better on spatial relationships and women on words. Cultural values in our society reinforce differences in hard wiring and then label them.

My personal crusade is to try to sort these differences into 'engineering' types and 'arts' types, irrespective of the plumbing of the person involved. Maybe equally silly, but it works for me.

And in any work or public endeavour I try to be as androgynous as possible, helped by my big, square hands.

PBM--shall I tell GG, or shall you?

Jennifer, did you try the other one? The BBC is biology-based or neuroscience-based, I believe; the BSRI is psychological.

MaryG, I agree.

I've been reading your blog for a while and find it really thoughtprovoking.

I've been pushed to think a lot more about gender because my girlfriend is transgender (male to female). She doesn't look particularly female but requests people use female pronouns. I haven't had any negative experiences of transphobia around her, but it has been strange to realise how I project maleness onto her in some ways (noting the similarities between her and my dad) and project femaleness onto her in other ways.

This relationship has made me more aware than ever before that the world is bigger and weirder and will never fit into two little boxes.

I am a lot like you, Andrea, in that I have more feminine pursuits, but I don't really think of myself as all that feminine. I'm not a frilly, dress-wearing, makeup-loving kind of girl. Sure, I like to bake, and do drafts, but I also like to do cross-words and logic puzzles.

I hate the limiting aspect of gender typing. While I see that most people just use the terms "feminine" and "masculine" as descriptors, aren't there much better terms? Like with Andrea, I would say that she's creative, a good friend, a formidable researcher, and is passionate about the enviornment. Why should I be so linguistically-challenged as to only denote her gender? There's so much more to her, and to everyone else. Why set such narrow parameters for yourself?

Oh, I'm pretty sure GG knows that I 'wear the pants in this family.' *wink*

Thanks, Emily.

That's an excellent point. Not somethign I'm qualified to speak about, but I'm glad you did. :)

Thanks, KLee.

NOw now, PBM; the man of the house can wear a skirt, if he wants.

I was surprised to find out how feminine I scored on the BBC test.

It is pretty ridiculous to decide that spatial relations are masculine and reading people's faces is feminine, when you think about it, but at the same time, I think it can be read as either a test of your innate abilities, or of how affected by gender socialization one is. Or both.

I think that with you in particular, the area where I'd view you as the most masculine is in your anger. You tend to stay logical, even when infuriated by social injustices, and are able to rationally look at the components of the system that have created the product of ignorance. This stands out in opposition to the sterotypical response of an angry woman, which would be to say "What a bitch!" behind someone's back.